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Sir Olaniwun Ajayi

Elder statesman Sir Olaniwun Ajayi is the oldest delegate in the just concluded ongoing National Conference.  In this interview with OASES NEWS Nigerian Chief Bureau, the nonagenarian politician and lawyer takes a swipe at critics of the perceived large presence of old people in the confab saying the allegation was misdirected. He also took a historical voyage into constitutional conferences in Nigeria. Excerpts:

The national conference came at a time when most Nigerians least expected it as a result of government initial opposition to the idea. What in your opinion sir that necessitated the government change of heart at the time?

If you are asking for my opinion, my view is that the President probably bent over backwards to satisfy the yearnings of very many Nigerians about the irregularities, many of them going on in the country. I think that was why he convened the national conference

You have always being an advocate of sovereign national conference, are you fulfilled by the national dialogue happening in your life time?

Well, I am quite pleased that it has, although very late happened in this country but I wouldn’t say that I am fulfilled at the moment unless and until the conclusion arrived at by the delegates at the national conference are submitted to referendum, then we Nigerians could say, ‘we Nigerians sent to the world our own constitution, quite different from the bogus constitution which we now use which was brought about by the soldiers and of course which tells a lot of lies about itself so that is it.

You are an elder statesman, how do you react to complaints from some quarters that this ongoing national confab is populated by old and expired politicians who probably might have nothing to offer?

When does a person expire?  You are a Journalist. I don’t want to ask you questions but people who refer to some people as people who have expired. It is unfortunate. When a person expires he breathed his last. He is dead. I can say this and I think I am right. I am the oldest person in the conference, but there is a number of people of similar age. Chief Edwin Clark is 87, Alhaji Tanko Yusuf, I think is 88, Adebanjo is 86. Now, young people who refer to some delegates at the national conference as people who had expired are not quite right. You can only tackle a problem if you have solution to that problem. You can only answer a question if you have your facts ready. Quite a number of these critics are people who were born, I would say during the military regime, quite a number of them after 1966, some of them around that time, some of them a year or two before the first coup, where all they know as far as I am concerned or much of what they know is on the doings of the military regime, no more no less. They don’t know,

I think I am right from the way they behave. What brought about the amalgamation?, what were we before 1914? When did the word ‘Nigeria’ came into being? so all these questions, I am sure most of these people who are critics of the composition of the delegates. For example I have not heard that most of these young people referring to the fact that up to 1900, we had Sokoto Empire, we had Oyo Empire, we had Borno Empire, we had this Emirate, that Emirate. We had Egba Kingdom, we had Ijebu Kingdom and so on. That was the situation before 1914. As a matter of fact, the word- Nigeria came into being in1897. This was a name given to the area you now refer to as Nigeria, that is to say, the area consisting of the various ethnic nationalities in the country. The Yorubas , the Hausas, the Fulanis, the Binis, the Ibos Itshekiri, Kanuri, Nupe and the rest.

Now it was a journalist whose name was Flora Shaw who woke up one morning. I think it was January 7, 1897 when she thought the appropriate name to be given to this collection of various countries various, nationalities be Nigeria. Then of course a person like Lugard was surprised and he said, ‘we were thinking of calling Nigeria Southern Sudan or something like that. That is one aspect

The second aspect was before Lugard came, there was a company run by a man called Goldie. He got his charter from the British Government doing business in where we now called Niger Delta it was more or less a good business but he was more or less, a thorn in the flesh of the people of Niger Delta up to the point of going into war with them and bringing soldiers to the place and it was from that moment that the person we now called Lugard became a captain because he was a trained soldier facing the war and a lot of people were killed. As a result of this operation, the British government decided to withdraw the charter of that company, Royal Niger Company. They withdrew the charter of that company and paid compensation to them. Because they were not treating the nationals very well then of course, there was what they called the ‘Northern Protectorate and Southern Protectorate’ then later they were running the Northern Protectorate

In the administration of the Southern Protectorate the British government had no problem because the revenue of the Southern Protectorate was more than enough to run the southern Protectorate but they didn’t have enough money to run the Northern Protectorate. They had to use the revenue from the tax payers of the British people and they felt that was not fair to the British people therefore why not put the Northern Protectorate and southern protectorate together so that they can use the revenue from the south to run the north that was how the amalgamation came in but the person really who was seriously behind amalgamating these areas was called- Harcourt. He was the secretary of state for the colony at that time. So he was behind Captain Lugard as he then was. So,  they decided to amalgamate these areas so that their business could continue furthermore, People who are making comments that people now in the national conference are expired people. But these are the people who have knowledge of what happened before 1914 and what happened when amalgamation took place. How did we come about independence? Did it just come?.

Some people started to fight from the moment of amalgamation, a lot of newspapers columnist came out criticizing the method of the British people and that was one of the reasons why Lugard did not like the Southern people particularly the Yorubas. He didn’t like us at all because they were criticizing him, because they were educated people and they could stand up to him which he didn’t like, whereas the northern people would regard him like lord. Lugard was just as good as God and they were more or less worshipping him. If you see the letter they were writing to him when he first came, he toured the whole of the North for nearly one year, whereas he toured the South from October and ended in December, 1912- a period of 3 months. When he toured the North they started to write to him in very complimentary and loving manner and sending him gifts but that wouldn’t happen in the South.

However, when amalgamation took place, he kept the North in the North and the Southerners in the South. Nobody was fully allowed to go to the North from the South. In fact, there was a man whose name I have now forgotten. He was a lawyer in 1932, he was going to the North by train. First they didn’t allow him to go by the class of train which he wanted. They wanted him to go through the lowest class. He accepted to do so. I think he was going to Zaria. He was not allowed to go beyond Kano. He was insulted, indeed assaulted. He had to come back to Lagos believing that as he got to Lagos he would go to Marina, the seat of government and report his experiences in the North ‘oh this is a country, why shouldn’t I be allowed to go?’. Through and through when he got to Marina to report, what did he hear? Why did you go there at all?’ so, the situation was as bad as that. As a matter of fact if any Northerner would like to communicate with Southerner, he had to take permission from the authorities in the North ditto from here.

These were the things that were taking place at that time. Not only that, in the South Lugard put in place what we called Legislative Council in 1922 comprising members from Lagos from certain part of South and then Calabar. But the Northerners were not allowed to join. For 25 years, there was complete separation of the North from the south. They were not allowed to mix. They kept them away from the south. Even missionary who came for evangelisation were not allowed and that was one of the things that brought about clear difference between educational opportunities between the South and the North.

In other words sir, are you trying to say that the younger elements in the confab may not have known these historical facts?

They didn’t know. As a matter of fact when they joined in 1947 after a period of 25 years there were so many primary and secondary schools here in the south, may be one or two in the north. the first person to go to England went there in 1947 whereas as far back as 1885/86, lawyers doctors engineers have been coming up from the south. So the south had been at it from quite a long time before the north came however there was a lot of agitation for self-rule and the agitation was mainly been staged from time to time by southerners, not northerners to the extent that about 1940/42 the British government thought that the agitation was getting too much they should do something about bringing self-rule to Nigeria. So, they gave authority and support to that idea. Governors were coming here to see that, that sort of thing take place. Then the British government arranged a general meeting for all Nigerians. The meeting was held at Ibadan. That was the first time when the first general conference took place. The west, the east the north sent representatives according to what the government has arranged.

One of the things that these critics do not know is the fact that when the northerners were coming to the conference, they came with 4 demands and I must tell you confidently that the demands which they gave became the genesis of our undoing in Nigeria today. One of them was that they should have 50 per cent of membership of the House of Representatives. When they said that, a person like Chief Arthur Prest and Awokoya from the west and the other (Prest) from Mid- West they raised objection that how could you have 50 percent? whatever ideas you bring will become law at the expense of other section, what are we trying to do? Are we trying to make sure that we are coming together to make progress or to make a destruction of this country? However, that was the first demand. The second demand was that revenue should be by per capital. They believed that they were more in number than the south, so revenue should be by per capital, that is by head or population and the third was that the boundary between the west and the north which is  Ilorin, Kabba and so on should not be altered knowing that people in that area are Yorubas. They said the boundary should not be altered because altering them would mean that their numerical strength would diminish. Then of course, the question of Lagos. They said Lagos should be a neutral place should not be part of western Nigeria. Do you know all these four points which gave a thought for row in the conference, the northerners got each of every one of the four demands. Today, where is Ilorin? In the north but the people there were Yoruba people. The Kogi people is part of the place so that was that but again at that time, they said they wouldn’t like to accept ministerial responsibility because Balewa said, being one of the leaders that he had only two graduates and then the literacy ratio in the whole of the north was 4 percent, therefore, they don’t want ministerial responsibility. This was 1950. But the British made them to accept ministerial responsibility by imposing it more or less on them. But they were not making a good job of it because they didn’t have the background for these things but the British wanted to use them. That is that.

Now let me go back to people who were passing the unseemly remark that most of the delegates were expired old people but they forgot when the conference was going to start, federal government published the various sections of the country where delegates would come from. The youths were represented. They are in the assembly now, women, students, artisans professionals and even handicapped people were represented. There was no particular demand for old people but again they said each state should have 15 people so it is for you as a geo political zone to have 15 people and each governor should send 3 people from the states and how this thing was done was not on the basis of if you are a Christian or a Moslem, certainly not. So it is not true that federal government have sent expired people to the conference

At a point in time during the deliberations, there are fears that the confab is being hijacked by a particular section of the country can you confirm the claim?

I don’t know about that.  You have witnessed quite a number of constitutional conferences in this country yet, many still believe that we have not got it right, what hope do you have in the present confab in terms of fulfilling the yearnings of the people?   My own take is that I don’t think one can put one’s hand on one’s chest and say a particular section of the country was taking over the conference but my observation from the various committees about 20 of them, is that every ethnic nationalities was trying to project its own issue as regards devolution, true federalism, fiscal federalism, state police et cetera but that created opportunity for people from their respective ethnic nationalities to project the issues which they were expected to put forward before coming back to their respective regions  and for such issues to be debated by the sub committees and the committee will submit its report for the consideration of plenary section of the national assembly.

The Yoruba went with an agenda based solely on regional autonomy, how far have you gone with it and what is the hope that the agenda will sail through at the end of the day?

We are treating that as an agenda or as one of the issues which south west delegates took to the conference.  What the south west has always wanted is that we must have devolution of powers. If power devolves from the centre on which should the power devolved should go. The stand of the south west was that if you go, the federating unit should be the geo political zone of the country like for example,  the power that the federal government would share  should go to south west or south east or south-south or north west north east or north central. So that is the stand of the south west.  But most of these geo political ethnic nationalities their stand is that they don’t want regions as we had before. Then of course when you listen to a few of them who want to tell you the truth of their own situation, you will be in sympathy with them. I will give you an example- A former governor of somewhere in the south east said federating unit, that is to say, the unit which the federal power would devolve should be the state not the regions because he said when he became governor, he said pregnant women were being carried in wheel barrows to hospitals because there was no roads. He said there was no single secondary school his area. It was him who started secondary school and over the years he has been trying to help his people that these boys and girls who leave secondary schools should go to the university and he made arrangement for those leaving university to have scholarship and go overseas. He said the situation in his state was so bad that they had to handle affairs themselves. He said if he should go home and tell his people that the federating unit in this place is the region that we are now going back to Enugu, he said his people will stone him. So my own observation is that among these various groups over the years there had been a lot of prejudices that is why they are not enthusiastic to allow the regions to be federating unit but the states. but on the other hand most of them the delegates all over the country were complaining about the governors, that the governors were no use. The governors were not answering to the needs and aspiration of the people in their respective states. Most of the governors were very autocratic and unapproachable so, there was nothing to write home about them.  So if you say the state is now the federating unit you are giving the governors who were very difficult to deal with now more powers

There was a unanimous decision passed by the confab delegates recently removing immunity clause from the constitution. What may have informed the decision?

The governors have done a lot of things to the disaffection of their people. They ‘ve been doing what they liked as governors as opposed to the welfare and well-being of their people and you are relying on immunity clause both criminal and civil. So generally many of us felt that immunity should be removed as far as criminal matters were concerned. Then some people said no, no it should be everything, both civil and criminal. So I think for that one sake every delegate embraced it that is to say immunity, both oral and written should be removed. No immunity any more for the executive.

Lastly at your age are you still into active politics because you seem to be at the forefront of resuscitating the defunct SDP?

A politician does not denounce being a politician. If you are a politician, you are a politician. So I am a politician It does not matter how old or how long, as long as  breath. I may not be able to run here and there to attend campaign meetings and so on, but I am a politician, a dye in the wool politician